Scholar-Practitioner Voice, Black Experience, and the Current State of Higher Education (Part 2)

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Welcome to the discourse with Dr. Che. What storytelling means scholarship, rigid knowledge, culture, and lived experience. I'm your host, Dr. Che, Higher Education Scholar Practitioner, and Truth Teller. And this podcast is a space for honest, unapologetic conversations about race, power, identity, and institutions. Here we break down the realities of higher education, explore how systems impact black professionals and communities, and connect research to real life. Let's get into the discourse. Welcome back. If you've listened to part one of this conversation, then you know we started by grounding ourselves in lived experience and what it means to navigate higher education as a black scholar, practitioner, and a black woman. And how that work shows up in real time. But in this part of the conversation, we have to zoom out because what is happening right now is both personal and structural. We feel the impact of these actions on a personal, professional, and institutional level. There are times where workplace relationships are strained and potentially severed. You have to trust the people you work with on a daily basis. This politically charged time in higher education is not just about policies, it's about people. And right now, black and brown folks are being attacked by this administration through its policies and politics. This administration has been given untethered powers to operate in the erasure and subjugation of black folks through this dear colleague letter and what I call the massacre. So now we're going to move into what's happening at the policy level, especially as we think about the dear colleague letter and what that has meant for institutions, for the work that we do, and for the people we serve. So let's get back into the conversation. You know, kind of brings me to the next point. So I did an episode about the dear colleague letter and what the shift in higher ed that happened over the last 365 days, 370-something days now when the dear colleague letter came out about eliminating all the DEI initiatives at higher ed institutions. So what does that look like in your space with this whole dear colleague letter? And now that he has decided, because I ain't gonna say his name, to abandon the appeals process of the dear colleague letter, but in that year, what has that looked like for you professionally in your space? And even just not just necessarily in your space, but for those around you.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Again, thankfully, you know, I don't I'm not employed um in an office that was impacted by, you know, the anti-DEI legislation, even from the state level. Um, but I do know people personally that were impacted by by those things. Um and to me, to me, I understand laws. I understand that, you know, when you are a public institution, some things you don't necessarily have a choice in the matter that has to be done, but I also believe there are ways to carry out things. And I think that how some things were done was crass. Um luckily, like the people that I know have all landed, you know, on their feet, some in better positions than they initially had. Um but yeah, I see, yeah, I just think that that whole thing, um it really just and how quick some some places were to just close everything down and just do a fail swoop. And I think that to me, that showed that I don't necessarily believe that there was a an ingrained commitment to those things in the first place versus it was when it was the flavor of the week where it was popular to talk about you know, support and diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging and all of the things. Um, because if it was if it was something that was truly ingrained in the fabric, I think the decisions that had to be made couldn't have been done in a better way. There's yeah. So it just exposed to me some things that were already there.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Yeah, and I when I talk about this, I kind of talk about how with George Floyd happened, you know, people were really quick, and even in the higher ed space, or because I remember when what was once called the Affirmative Action Office sort of they started changing their names to different names with equity, because when affirmative action kind of moved to diversity, equity, and inclusion, um, because I think the misconception with even affirmative action or DEI is the assumption that it gives black folks preference over everything else. Equity and inclusion means so many other things other than black folks. White women is because it's gender is a protected class, people with disabilities. Um in some cases it can mean veterans, in other cases it could be people who need accommodations, not necessarily they're disabled, but they need accommodations. Or um ageism, so people who are at a certain age because they can be discriminated against. I think people don't associate that with diversity, equity, and inclusion, and they never associate it with affirmative action, obviously. Yeah, but when George Floyd happened, then it was oh, we just really need to do all of these things to prove to black folks that we care and we're and we're gonna say black lives matter, and we're gonna you know create all these focus groups and work groups and initiatives and have these critical conversations, critical conversations, and all this programming around all of these things related to DEI, or uh we're gonna change the name of the office and we're gonna do the work and we're gonna put black people in there. We're gonna give somebody a title and we're gonna have them do work around this, but you never really commit to doing the work. It's just it's shiny and new right now because this thing is going on, and just quite frankly, folks were tearing shit up. Because at this point, it's like, okay, do you believe us now? Yeah, believe the thing that we've been telling you for over 400 years, but within the last 60 or 70 years, says Jim Crow, do you believe the thing that we've been saying? Now it's live and living color. So now do you believe us? But also, we just kind of tired.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

So now it's like, oh, we hear you, we see you, and this is what we're gonna do. But like you said, as soon as you were given permission to not do these things anymore, you just created what I call the mask and just gutted stuff, shut down programs, people, faculty or students, graduate students, people lost funding, they lost scholarships, they lost uh jobs shut down, or you know, some people were moved to different to different things, but it was just really telling it to what we knew to be true.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

It was all performative in the first place, no real intention because to create change means you gotta dismantle, and we know that ain't happening that part, so and and the thing that that bothers me more than I'm not gonna say more than anything else, is we know this, and I don't know if you know, within higher ed they are just anticipating us, you know, not saying anything or just being okay with it. Um but we we know when things aren't what they need to be. We know when things are authentic or are performative and and and and things like that, right? And so when things like this happen, it's like we knew you know, we weren't surprised when when when it happens, right? Um disappointed, you yes, uh, but surprised, no.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

It was you know, it's the same old excuse me, bless you in the back for a long time. But it's like surprise, surprise. Like we, you know, we knew this was coming. This ain't nothing new. I live through stuff like this, you know. Now it's kind of our, you know, with BLM, with Mike Brown, you know, the start of the Black Lives Matter movement, see that that shift of what's been going on. So is we know these things to be true, but it's also frustrating to see it play out. And in these particular moments, are you really safe in these spaces? Because like the last what, 10 years really politically charged.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Oh yeah, and I'm gonna say this, um, and this might not have anything to do with the topic at hand, but I'm gonna link it back. That's what that's what we do. Um, you know, I teach, you know, I teach a class, and one thing that I say, you know, in general to, you know, really anybody who is listening, is that elections have consequences, right? And so when you say, well, you know, that I agree with this policy, you know, or I'm okay with them doing this, that, and the third one, it doesn't affect you, but it directly affects me, um, you're okay with it. But as soon as, you know, you're having that problem, oh my gosh, I I'm so sorry, I shouldn't have voted this way three times or or or whatever, right? Um and but the consequences of those things have deep lasting impacts. Um, you don't necessarily like people will say, you know, well, who's the president? You know, they just uh a figurehead because Congress makes all the S, da, da, da, da. Yes and no. Because the president has the problems like this, the current um president has appointed so many people to the supreme court. And you would think, well, the thought back in the day was, you know, once a law has been decided by the supreme court, you know, that's considered, you know, it is what it is, the law of the land. But the president appointing people who lean a certain way, they are dismantling laws and things that have been in place for decades. OV Wade being dismantled, regardless of what your personal opinions are dismantled. Um, the voting rights act, you know, being you know, dismantled. And so that has long-lasting decades repercussions because folks don't you don't serve on the Supreme Court for two terms. That's a lifetime appointment. And when you got young folks in there with these, you know, crazy ideologies, that's that's that's what's that's what's gonna happen. And that is what it we are seeing happen.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

But it does kind of link link back to to all of it, the work, work that we've done, our research, being at higher ed, because we don't have the luxury to be single issue voters, but also because of the political climate and the things that are being done, we are in danger. Like it is a dangerous time for us. Like, I snatch people off the street um without checking if you are legal and making assumptions. I mean, they're racially profiling, which has always happened to us.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

And you know, we we don't do this type of research, but there's research out there that talks about black students constantly being profiled. I mean, and this happened to staff and faculty racially profiling it as do they essentially belong on this campus?

SPEAKER_01 16:11

You know, and laws that are, you know, from federal to state, because again, you know, elections have consequences, even on the state level, who do you send into your state capitals to do these things, right? You know, dismantling of funding, closing down of programs, and even some, you know, departments and degrees, you know, are in danger and people having to rethink, okay, how am I gonna be able to continue to do this type of work in this space if these laws come come down? Right. So it's all it's all interconnected. And so how are we as black folks, black women, black, black professional staff, keeping all of that in mind as we go about doing our daily work?

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Right. And also because, like you said, you what you teach, I taught a deconstructing race class, you know, I wondered if somebody's gonna register for my class for the sole purpose of going on CNN or something and trying to, you know, get me fired or situations like what happened at Oklahoma. You know, I don't worry about those types of things, you know, because these folks got hit lists. These people have hit lists of black folks who are doing any type of work related to race and they are harassing people, you know. So you really do wonder about are you going to be a target? Is it a safe space? But also bringing it back to the work. So then for people who are in that political mindset, do I have to worry about are you effectively doing your job when it comes to black and brown students?

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

That you're serving. Like, how are you responding to students? Like, what type of mindset are you approaching them with? Um, you know, we talk about the different aspects of the way you have to look at students when you're coming in contact or making about students based on their demographic, were raised in a privileged environment. So you have different ideas and assumptions about what students should look like and what they can and can't do based on your background. And so what you're doing, you're essentially harming students because you're coming from a different perspective, and you feel, you know, because I remember constantly having a conversation with a white faculty person who always had something negative to say about the black students in her class all the time. Never had anything positive to say, it was always a complaint about either the way they dressed when they came in class or yeah, um, you know, they're just here to get the financial aid check because you know they're doing this or whatever. You know, it just went on and on and on, and I couldn't take it anymore. And I said, number one, the federal government says you can use that money for these things. So the assumptions that you're making about people getting refund checks to live off of, you can actually do that.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Oh, yeah. And you can tie, you know, all of that back to student success. Because one, how we feel about our jobs and and and things, it it directly impacts the like the effort and stuff that we put in, right? And how we feel about students, it directly impacts the you know, the effort that that we might put in. Um, and so we have these internal, you know, biases and you know, these sometimes even you know overt, you know, thoughts and conversations that people are having, um, you know, about about students and about other people who don't look like them, then when you are trying to make sure, you know, because institutions, you know, you gotta have people graduating, you gotta have, you know, funding formulas and all the things. And so when you look at, you know, students will tell you, well, you know, I went because I've had students come to me. Well, I tried to talk to this person in that office or this person in another office, and they just treated me so bad, then I'm not going back to talk to them, but I'll talk to anybody else but right, and so which if they don't have that good experience, they don't feel like they belong, they don't feel like they matter, then they don't come back. And and in this cycle, you know, because if if there are no students, there's no institution, no institution, no jobs. And so what are we doing? Right as a whole.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

So like you have to be responsive and understand the needs of the students you're going to serve, and that also means making sure your employees don't enact their own biases and yeah, misconceptions about the students that they serve, particularly when you're in majority black spaces.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you know, I'm not going to ever be the one to say, you know, people have biases, right? But you need to be aware of those biases and acknowledge them and operate um equitably and fairly in spite of those biases. Um, because there's a job at hand that needs to be done, you know, with with you know supporting the students. And, you know, um, but again bringing it back. If black women, black staff were the ones giving those experiences to students and were the ones that were being complained on, we wouldn't be it would be some accountability there. Um yeah, it it would it would definitely be some accountability because I know for a fact, um, not necessarily at a current click that I've worked at multiple institutions where you know students have complained about faculty complained about staff that was not a black person and nothing was done. You know, and it was just like, okay, well, let me go find somewhere else to give my tuition dollars because obviously you're not caring about not caring about me.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Yep. And that has a real impact on you as an individual, you know, with saying, okay, even if I if I'm going to voice this, you know, that's happening and you're doing nothing, obviously you don't care about me or my success here, or just individual as a professional. Um and so that just sort of reinforces you know what the institution is about that is not there to do anti-rape effort, they're just there to uphold the status quo, then how are you able to just continue to persist knowing that these spaces aren't necessarily built for you?

SPEAKER_01 24:20

You know, it's one of those things where some people have more options than others, right? And I also think that for me personally, I can comp I compartmentalize a lot of different things. Um, you know, because I think about okay, first and foremost, what are my who are my who or what are my allegiances to, who are my primary responsibilities, and everything else is secondary. Right. And so how I move in any in these spaces, knowing that, you know, it wasn't designed for for me, um, even with being acknowledged for the work that I make do professionally, my research type work. Um first and foremost, my fat, you know, my family, like my daughter. So every decision that I make, I consider her and our livelihood and how I can make sure that I'm continuing to be the best mother, parent, you know, provider that I can be for her. Everything else, you know, is a pick and choose, you know, picking and choosing battles. Uh, some battles I may decide to pick, I may have the time, some I might not. Um, but even in those instances where I might choose not to, well, I might not choose to pick or fight that particular battle, it doesn't negate the fact that I'm aware of what's going on. And bringing in, you know, going back to my research, you know, the thing, you know, with how we engaging in acts of of resistance, resistance is not necessarily, you know, large-scale grand, you know, protests, marches, and sit-ins. It could be that small thing that you do in your own immediate space that, you know, you are, you know, silently, or some folks not as silent, you know, resisting. And what does that look like? Well, I'm glad you asked. Um, it can look like it can look like uh something as small as not having work email on the phone. Okay, I work 8 to 4:30. Don't email me before 8. Well, you can email me at any time, but I'm not gonna respond outside of my working hours. Um, it could be as far as um, you know, uh setting boundaries, you know, in going to therapy, having self-care. Um, it could be something even where, you know, more vocal people might call things out in that exact moment. And so what are those things that you can do for yourself? Uh, it could be reclaim your time, you know, a lack of preparation on somebody else's part does not make it an emergency on mine, right? And so what can I do to make my immediate, you know, environment more palatable and more manageable, even when I recognize that you know I'm one person might not be able to change everything, but I can change this, I can change my bubble. And so um I what I can do, I do, and what I can't, I don't, and I don't feel bad about what's what does not get done on a certain day. Um yeah, and uh as as our great auntie Maxine, I reclaim my time. Time, yes, reclaiming my time, and it is what it is, you know. So so just those small acts of everyday resistance, personal things that we can each do.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Great way to tie that back to your research. Um, and I was watching a TikTok, I think yesterday, where she was talking about black women and how we just go and go and go, and we neglect ourselves sometimes for the sake of, you know, we're mother, we're caregivers, um, you know, at work, sometimes we care caregivers at work, you know, we take care of folks at work and we do more than we need to because we the responsibility to do it. Um, and I know what you said about taking your um phone off, you know, taking your work phone off. You know, that's something that I struggle with, um mainly because you know, we feel responsible to make sure the thing is done sometimes because we know that if the ball gets dropped, we get it.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Now let me clarify. I have my work email on my phone. You know, I was you know, thinking of like my co-creators of my dissertation, you know, some of them was like, I don't have this, that with third, I have mine, but you know, even if because sometimes I like to work on my own time. And yeah, um, but so if I decide to, if I want to make my during the day a little less hectic, I might do something a little bit later, you know, work at night. Um because it's a trade-off, because I'm I'm being strategic in how I spend my time to to make sure things that I need to get done get done. So, but there were just some examples that that I was given in my research. Um, but yeah, I have my I have I have my work email on my phone. Um, I don't necessarily check it all the time, but because I'm still actively engaged in you know this work and in, you know, trying to read and trying to write and trying to publish, I do that a lot off hours. And so if I see an email come through because I'm working on something, and if it takes 30 seconds to respond to it, I might go ahead and respond.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

You see, that's what I was gonna say is that always use the excuse that, oh well, I'm I'm a student, so I I still need to check my email because my professor may be emailing me, or you know, I so I still need to check my email out the hours and on the weekends because it may be school related, or for us, because we also teach, you know, our students may be trying to email us, so we have so many identities within so that it's all crumbled up there together. So that was always my excuse as to why I needed to check my email, why I needed it on my phone. But what I also found was I'm not always checking for school and students, you know. I see the little work email and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna respond to it because it's you know, like something we'd be thinking about it all night. And so, right, like when you talk about resistance, one of those things is maybe I take it off over the weekend and just refuse to read it or occasion. But again, it's always that duality that I'm waiting to hear about this conference presentation, or um that part because I'm still waiting to hear. Yes, always those things about that's tied to that, but you know, there are things that we can do um to push back or resistance attention. Um but what does self-care look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 32:29

So, you know, my my my former self, you know, and I thank God for growth. Um, because my former self would have been like, forget them folks, and and and and I wouldn't say forget, I'd say something else.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Um this is gonna be wide and I ain't gonna cut something like that. But but right now, self-care for me looks like setting boundaries and being okay with things not getting done. Um, being okay with telling people no, that's probably the biggest one. Um, yeah, and just not stressing out about the things that are outside of my control. That's for me, that's the biggest thing that I'm doing right now to maintain my own sanity. Is I don't stress if if I can't control it, I'm not stressing out about it. Um, I'm gonna say no when I need to say no and keep pushing.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Yeah, I agree, you know, with the setting boundaries, saying no, um being okay with something not getting done. I think those are hard for me it me to do. Um, and I don't know if it has to do with being the oldest or um I don't know, I don't know what it has to do with, but um, you know, feeling an obligation to get things done because and I for a period of time when I um had another position, like I was the only person in the office, so then it was like, well, I can't really take off because then nobody's going to be in the office, so I feel an obligation to be there. Um, you know, and we see all these things about you know, the workplace don't care nothing about you because if you die, they're gonna have your job posted, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

They will, and that will, and that is absolutely true. I don't know. You look, yeah. So yeah, um, the institution as a whole, they don't they don't care about us um as a whole. You know, there are some people who do really care and things like that, but at the bottom line, you know, the institution has to is taking care of the institution. So I use my time, you know. I I don't use it as much as I probably should, but when I need to be off, I don't feel bad about it now. Um, I don't feel bad about it at all. At all. So use your time, child.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Yeah, I have in the last probably um three or four years, I've started to be more intentional about taking off. What would you say to other black professionals navigating higher ed right now?

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Keep your head on swivel. Is it what they say? Keep your head on swivel. Be aware of what's going on. Um, be intentional about how you choose to bring yourself into these spaces. Um, know that you are you are worthy to be in these spaces. Whether um, you know, people tell you that or not, you are worthy, you are meant to be in these spaces, you have the skill set, capabilities, and mindset to do the work. And so don't let other people, don't let the systems and the institution as a whole dictate your self-worth and if whether or not you feel that you can do the work because you can.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

And so what does liberation look like for you? And this can be within higher ed or beyond higher ed.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

I don't know. Um I'll say, you know, freedom, liberation and and and freedom. I don't think within the confines of higher ed, you know, we will truly ever be free, truly ever have like liberation. Um, it might be lesser degrees or whatever. But I just think that just the the freedom, the free will and and the options to have choices on what to do. Um that's that's what I'm looking forward to, you know, even with you know options for like choosing, you know, if I want to choose a different career path, um, if I want to do different things, but being in a place where I feel that I can make those decisions without negative consequences and repercussions, if that makes sense. Because some people feel that they are tied to, you know, don't feel that they can make moves and make adjustments. And so I think for me, liberation will be when I won't, I would, I will be in a space where I can make those moves and make those adjustments and things won't fall apart.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

And so one final question if higher ed could tell the truth about itself, what would it say?

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Do better. Do better. That's it, just do better. And all that it means, do better.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

Do better.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

And we know in the in the in the black community, do better feels a lot.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

It says a lot. This is what we're doing. This what this is this is what we're doing right now. You you know better. So do better.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

So you need to do better, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Yeah, that's it. Like, do better.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

And if you're not, then do something else.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

All of the things, do something else. Okay, well, thank you, Dr. C. Thank you for having me. It's been a great conversation.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Yes, you are my first guest on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Hey, hey, hey, okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

As we move, we can talk about our little venture. Not our little venture, but our venture that we have together.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Yeah, I'm excited about it.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Yes, Melanin Scholars.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Yes, yes, yes. So, people, um Dr. Shea and I are taking on this endeavor of Melanin Scholars, where we are trying to do all things to support black and brown uh doctoral students, navigating the process, navigating um, you know, all of the things that go along with completing a completing a doctorate degree, um, being support, you know, writing groups, uh, motivations, just all of that. So we're we're we're excited about, you know, having an official launch of Melanin Scholars to be able to share that with everybody.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Coming up soon, yes, because it goes back to what we were talking about earlier with being that space for black and brown doc students, maybe operating in isolation or in especially in online in online programs where physically uh present. Um number one, it that's isolating, but number two, when you get to the dissertation stage, it gets more isolating, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Not in coursework anymore, and it's all on your own, your own volition, like right, and you know, and we see this me, because mind you, you know, we've talked about melanin scholars since we finished in 2024. We have sat down multiple times and talked about, you know, we all the things, and so when we are perusing, you know, TikTok and see then we see all these things, we're like, you know, that was us. We've been talking about this, and so what are we waiting on to do the work to and and to get it out there because there is definitely a need for um you know melanin, melanated folks to have these spaces where they can get that support, get that encouragement, get those strategies, um, have those accountability partners and all of the things to make sure that they are you know getting finished with these degrees.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

So, you know, we've been individually helping people, you know, navigate this space. So it's like we just need to come together and do this because obviously people are coming to us, people have been sent to us. Um so we was like, yeah, we can do this thing and put this, put this together and offer support in that way. So we're very excited about what we're about to do, and yes, definitely be on the lookout for more information on launch day and our first event coming soon.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Melanin Scholars. Melanin's you will be able to find us on all the social media platforms. We'll have a TikTok, um, we'll have an Instagram, we'll have LinkedIn, we'll have all of the things. Yes. All right, well, thank you so much. Anytime, anytime. Can't wait to come back.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Yes, yes, because we will have Dr. Pryor is going to join us and we're gonna do a Academic Freedom Riders episode.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Period.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Talk about we'll bring Dr. Pryor in and talk about his work and collectively what we've done and what we're gonna do together. Uh streets.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

That part, that part, you know, I will say this, you know, the the work that we are each doing individually and how we're going to be able to bring it all together. We doing some, we're doing some phenomenal work, you know, with with everything. And I and I can't wait to, you know, have Dr. Pryor join us in another conversation to talk about his research with other mothering and, you know, his experiences with us, you know, with going through the doctoral program, academic, the the genesis. Of the academic freedom riders, and you know, all of the things, this is gonna be good.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

As we bring this episode to a close, I think what this conversation reminds us more than anything is that what we are experiencing in higher education right now is not random, it is deeply felt by the people doing this work, and so as we sit with everything that was shared in this conversation, I want you to hold on to this. The work may shift, the language may change, institutions may reposition themselves, but that does not erase what you know, it does not erase what you have done, and it does not erase the impact of the work you've carried. Thank you for spending time with me on the discourse with Dr. Shay. If today's conversation spoke to you, I invite you to subscribe, share the episode, and continue these conversations in your spaces and communities. You can also stay connected with me online. Follow me on Instagram at dr underscore Shay. On TikTok at Dr Shay slash Gen X, and follow the podcast on TikTok at Discourse with Dr. Shay. You can also visit the podcast website at thediscourse with Dr. Shay dot com for episodes, resources, and more. Remember, storytelling is powerful, scholarship is necessary, and our lived experiences matter. Until next time, keep engaging, keep reflecting, and keep pushing the discourse forward.