Scholar-Practitioner Voice, Black Experience, and the Current State of Higher Education (Part 1)

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Welcome to the discourse with Dr. Che, where storytelling means scholarship, original knowledge, culture, and lived experience. I'm your host, Dr. Che, Higher Education Scholar Practitioner, and Truth Teller. And this podcast is a space for honest, unapologetic conversations about race, power, identity, and institutions. Here we break down the realities of higher education, explore how systems impact black professionals and communities, and connect research to real life. Let's get into the discourse. So today's episode is a little different and honestly really special. This is the first time I'm bringing someone else into the space. And I was really intentional about that. Because the discourse has always been about truth telling, about naming what we experience in higher education, especially as black professionals, in ways that are both lived and grounded in scholarship. And one of the things I've said before is that these experiences are not isolated. They are shared, they are patterned, and they are structural. So today we're expanding the discourse. And this conversation was one that I did not want to rush. So we're holding it across two episodes. Not shifting away from what this podcast is, but doing a deeper dive by bringing in another voice. This is also doing this work as a scholar practitioner. And in this part, we're really grounding ourselves in her work, her experiences, and what it means to navigate higher education as a black scholar practitioner. My guest today is Dr. Frederica Kelly. And in this conversation, we are going to sit at that intersection of black womanhood, lived experience, scholarship, and the current moment in higher education. Especially as we think about everything happening right now, including the impact of the dear colleague letter and what that means for black professionals across institutions. So this isn't just an interview. This is a conversation. This is discourse. And I appreciate you tuning in for it. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Good afternoon, Dr. Shay. Good afternoon, Dr.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

C. We're gonna get this show on the road because I know you got things to do. Okay. So tell me who is Dr. Callie? Tell everybody about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

You know, that's one of the hardest questions that you can ask somebody is to talk about themselves, right? Um, but I will say, um I am first and foremost, I'm black. As light-skinned as I am, I'm black, blacky black. So I am a black, southern, Mississippi-born, raised woman. I am a mother, I am a Christian, I am a leader, I am a scholar. Um, so those are just some of the adjectives that I would say that would describe me.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

So um, what dreamed higher education?

SPEAKER_01 3:58

It really just happened. Um, I didn't initially think I would end up in higher as a career. My undergrad degree is in psychology, and so I have a bachelor's degree in psychology, and after graduation, I worked in mental health for probably about four or five years. And then I got tired of doing that with a bachelor's degree because we weren't making no money and it was just a lot of stress. And because I worked at a level four site facility, I worked in group homes. I was like, let me find something else to do. And so I researched um higher ed. And so that's when I did a career shift and went into um I got my master's in higher ed and student personnel, and so it went from there. So it just happened, it wasn't necessarily a big plan from the get-go.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

And that's funny because A, I just like I said, I I didn't know that that I mean, I knew you had your degree in psychology, but I didn't know that you'd actually worked um in psychology or in that field. Because the other day when I was in your office, I saw I think you have a certification on the wall, and I was like, okay, so she was doing the thing in that field, in that field, certified.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

I was one of the, I think it was like the inaugural group because mine just was, you know, 20 plus years ago. Um, the we I was a certified case management professional with the with the State Department of Mental Health. And so doing, yeah, doing the work, I was actually working in the field in psychology. Um and my last job before I transitioned from mental health and into higher ed, I was in the school system. And it was a rural, small rural uh school district in Northeast Mississippi. I was a case management that was on site there. Um, but I was working with the State Department of Mental Health, but I was in the school system doing case management. So yeah, I got tired of doing that. And I said, let me find something else. Something else to do.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

And it's always funny how the majority of people who I talk to, higher ed is something they just fell into, or it was never a career aspiration, which is really interesting because I guess you never really think initially about higher ed being a career field.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

No, I thought I was gonna be a therapist.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

My my initial goal, you know, from when I was younger, because my then best friend, her aunt, um, she had a PhD and she worked in psychology at like a hospital. And I was like, oh, I want to do that. Um and it just didn't work out. Yeah, it that just was not my my path. And so, yeah, I never thought higher ed would be where I would end up.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

So, with that, when did you realize that the work that you're doing in higher ed was more than just a job of nine to five or eight?

SPEAKER_01 7:15

I don't think I don't think there was this one moment where it was like, aha, here I am, you know, this is my calling. The Lord has put me in this place. I don't think that that was the case. Um, I just think that over the years doing this work, you know, because I work in student success. Um, I've worked, you know, in career services, I worked in academic advising, I've worked in learning support and all of the things. And to me, over the years, just being able to see the direct impact that I have made on students is like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to do. Because one of the best feelings that we can have is when, you know, I get students coming back with invitations to their graduations when they were barely even in classes for for quite a while. So it's just a combination of all of those things.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Yeah, it does feel good when you can really see the impact of them making it to that point, and then make you had a small role getting them to the finish line. Um, especially when they come back and say, I'm graduating, or thank you. Um, those emails, and you know, that stuff is like, okay, on the bad days, this is kind of what gets me through. It makes up for work. Yeah. So we're gonna pivot just a little bit and talk about Dr. Cali, the scholar and practitioner. So, how are you defining yourself within that work or within the descriptors?

SPEAKER_01 8:59

How do I define myself or see myself as a scholar practitioner? Um, one, you know, being that black feminism is my thing. So definitely black feminist, but I would say continuous learner and um lifelong engagement in the work and trying to make sure that the work that I do will speak for itself. And so just continuously learning, continuously trying to be engaged in the work.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

And so, do you see that merging into your scholarship?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Can you say that again?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

So you do you see like how you show up in in your space, how that merges into your scholarship and your oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Because especially when you're doing critical work, whether it's critical frameworks, methodologies, or any of those things. And for me personally, I am my work. What I am researching, I'm researching me. I am researching other people who look like me who I was wondering, you know, did they have the same experiences that I've had, you know, trying to navigate, you know, higher ed. So um I definitely see, you know, myself in this work. And and I in these spaces, it's all one and the same because you can't separate who you are from whatever space you're in. You just pick and choose how you want to move through it.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah, I know. Sometimes, you know, when I'm working and something happens and I'm like, there it is. There's that thing.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

It's oh, yeah, yeah. Like even it's when you're, you know, as embedded in it as we are, right? It could be something as simple as a commercial you see on TV, it can be a TV show that you're watching, it could be a news article, it could be a movie. Literally, we can see ourselves in anything because as black women and black people, we are everywhere, right? And so every now and then it's just like, yep, that's one of that's that's Patricia Hill Collins all day, right there. You know, she talks about she talked about that. Oh, yeah, that's bell hooks right there, all day, every day. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

And so with that, talk about your journey to Doctor C. Like what how was that for you?

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Well, it was not linear, okay. So background story. Again, you know, like I said earlier, I grew up I'm born and raised in in the deep south. I'm from rural northeast Mississippi, right? And I was one of I graduated in a high school class, it was 158 of us in my high school class. Out of that 158, there was one black person who graduated with honors, and it was me. And so I've always, and it was majority white um um, you know, school, majority white county. Um, and so it's always been it's kind of hard to explain. So it's always been where, you know, in these spaces where it was just something that we just had to do. Um repeat the question, I kind of got lost. So tell us about your journey. Yeah, my journey. Yeah, my journey. And so really it led up to um where I am now because I'm a first-generation college student. My my parents went to college. Um, they didn't finish college. Um, the school that they went to actually shut down probably about 20 or something years ago. Um, and so the one thing that they always told me was like, get your education, because can nobody take that away? And so I always knew that I wanted to do something. I knew that I would go to college, but I didn't know I would be Dr. C. Um, and it really didn't come, I really didn't take it serious until I was working at an institution and was continuously overlooked for for um jobs. And I was like, well, I know this person and I know I can do what they're doing because mediocrity, um just to be completely honest, right? Or um and or and they had these this credential, and I knew I had the skill set, but I just didn't have this paper behind my name. And so that was really the motivation to to become Dr. C was knowing that my skill set, knowing that I have the qualifications to do these things, now that I have this paper, now that I have this doctor degree behind my name, what is your excuse now for um not, you know, um considering me for these other positions?

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Yeah. Okay, yeah. That is, I think, similar stories for a lot of us, specifically coming from the deep south, you know, where we have parents who live through segregation and and all of that. Um, so and you already talked a little bit about you being present or showing up in your research. So have you in in your description of you're a black woman, you're black of the black every day, all day, have you ever felt any tension between what the institution has or the expectations that the institution has for you between being true to who you are and your community and the values that you hold? Have you ever felt any tension or any sort of I guess expectation that you felt that you had to live up to?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Well, yes and no. Um, I'm well aware of you know institutional expectations that's placed on us as black women in higher ed. Um but I also I'm well aware that for me, I'm intentional about how I choose to show up in these spaces, regardless of if this is the institutional expectations or not. Um and one thing, you know, even with even with my research, that you know, black women, we can be authentic without being putting everything on display. Because I'm I get to pick and choose how much of me you have access to. And so you might not at work get the one who, you know, I might like to, you know, kick in, you know, have libations with my friends. You might not get that. You know, you might not get the one who will tell you off. Sometimes they do get it. Um, but you know, the expectations, I don't let what the institutional expectations define how I see myself because we are navigating these spaces, we are playing this game, and it's uh it's a it's a choice in how much I let them, how much I give of myself to these spaces. And so while I acknowledge there can be some differences, but I've it really I don't put too much weight into the institutional expectations, but I understand how to navigate these spaces is a game and we have to play the game. Okay, right. Yeah, yeah. Because we don't have the we don't have the flexibility to be vulnerable, to to show our full range of humanity and emotions and things of that nature, right? Because if somebody is hurting me and harming me, and then I pop off and then I say something, then I'm the aggressive, then I'm labeled the angry black woman, right? And so what I've done, and and this has not always been the case in my professional career, I think that I have gotten to a place where I know how to go along to get along, if that makes sense. Um understanding that some things that I have the power to control, some things that I do not have the power to control. And those things that I do not have power to control, I don't stress out about those because the people who are in decision-making positions, they're gonna do what they want to do anyway. And so I just like I'm gonna I'm gonna do what I do, I'm gonna make sure that I put my best effort into things because I guess that you know, with those institutional expectations, I'm making sure that the work that I put out is high quality work. Right. That that the work I put out that people don't have to question, you know, oh uh Frederica did this, so we know it's gonna be pretty accurate versus you know, people looking at my work ethic and and questioning, you know, the accuracy and the, you know, how you know the accuracy and things of that nature, if if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Yes, because that brings up a good question. Do you ever feel the weight of that it always has to be on point? Like, do you ever feel like you have room to not necessarily fail, but to make mistakes? You know, when when you talk about, yes, we know Dr. C gonna make sure stuff tight and right, and we gonna follow the policy and we're gonna do this. Um, but you know, as we all human, and sometimes, you know, stuff made, it just ain't clicking. Do you feel that you have the grace and space to do that without feeling like this is going to be yet another negative trope about folks?

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Currently, yes. Um, that has not always been the case though. I am, and I'm thinking, you know, within my, you know, my my day job, right? I am thankful that the people that I work, you know, that are my direct reports, you know, that I report directly to, that we do have that relationship where I don't feel that if I make a mistake, everything's going to hell in a handbasket. So I do have some really good people, you know, that we're in my division. And so I like I said, I do feel like right now in this current environment, for me, if I make a mistake, I'm it's it's not gonna be the end of the world. Right currently, but I'm also aware. And that's the thing, you know, we're all we're we're hyper aware of things. I I know that this is not the case for all people, not even at the same institution, not even, you know, in the same, maybe even the same division, right? So I know I'm blessed in that aspect where I don't feel there is still pressure to do well and to be correct, but if I make a mistake, I don't think it's gonna be like the end of the world. And I don't think they would look at me any differently.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah, because I know I've felt that way, even though I know that there are other folks who have done the same or worse or dropped the ball, but I've always felt like if I do something, then like now I'm stressing all day, or or I'm just over processing what happens to me, that feels like an extra, like my check mark is bigger than their check mark, right? Yeah, you know, but it's like the expectation that we're already looked at. In certain lights or as on in the current climate, DEI hires or whatever. Um, that sometimes it's like I can't mess up because I know what could potentially come after that. And I know that that may not be the case for everybody, especially depending, like you said, depending on where you work.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Yeah, but I will still say, even though in my immediate space, I would say my immediate space, you know, I'm I'm fortunate to be in a position where when or if I do make a mistake, I know that my immediate folks are not going to look at me a certain type of way, right? But also I do still have that feeling like, damn, let me make sure, let me make sure I don't make this mistake again. Right, right, right. Let me not make this a habit. You see what I'm saying? Um because we again, we don't have like that grace, we don't have that flexibility to continuously make mistakes. And so that's what you know, even you know, I tell my staff, I said, look, you know, I'm not a micromanager, howsoever, and ever so how I need things to be done in a certain way. I need things to be done in a certain way, and as long as and as long as things are being done the way that they need to do, because I have to report out to people. And so as long as y'all give me what I need, I'm not gonna be, you know, overbearing. But if I have to come to you to address some things, I will. And so, and that's all going back to we got to make sure the things that are coming out of this office because the assistant director of this office, she's black now, you know, and there's not a lot of black people in leadership. So we gotta make sure that it's right, and we gotta make sure that we are following the policy. We gotta make sure that there is no um, there is no discrepancies in in the things that we do because we don't we don't want to put an unnecessary light on us, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:13

So I know maybe not in this in this position or in this space, but I know you worked um at another institution and then you were a GA, I think, at Ole Miss. So have you ever sort of felt the weight of being the only black?

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Absolutely. Absolutely, you know, and I'll take that even back again to you know my formative education. Now, I grew up in a majority white um county. I lived out in the country, and so most of the black people in the county lived on, lived in, lived in the community um that I lived in, right? And so I went to school, you know, it was it was a mix of black folks and and and white people. But going back to, you know, talking about, you know, scholastic, scholastic abilities, I was, they didn't call it gifted. They didn't call it gifted back then. Um, we had it was a split class. And so when I was in elementary school, I was taking classes with the grade ahead of me. And so, and so sometimes I will be the only black person in in the class of my grade. Um I've been, you know, when I was in high school taking, you know, taking advanced classes, the only black in in, you know, in some of those advanced classes. Moving into professionally, I wasn't in the space when I was in grad school at Old Disc where I was the only um black person in in any of those spaces. But I moved to Oklahoma. I was an academic advisor at Oklahoma State University for a few years, right after I finished my master's degree. And I was the only person, black person in my office. And and so I did feel the weight of being like the only black person um in this office of academic advisors in the school of business, trying to do this, trying to do this thing. So I did feel that um because although I am not the voice of black people, I understood that I was the representation. And even though it's not fair to feel that you are the representative and that you are that one, but I yeah, yeah, you I felt it. Um even though there were other black folks on campus, because it's a college town, um, they actually have uh diversity, vice chancellor, vice president for diversity, and and and all of the things, right? Um very engaged black faculty, staff associates, some things that other institutions within majority black spaces don't have. Um, but yeah, I've I felt it. And even in in meetings where I was not the only black person, but I I'll never forget, and you've heard me tell the story. I was invited, this was before I had got my um, I wasn't even in school thinking about getting a doctorate degree, but I was invited to this meeting with some stakeholders and some folks from across campus and like some folks from the community that were there were some philanthropists, you know, looking to donate some money for a project. And so we were in small groups, and I was the only person in my group that did not have a doctorate degree, and I was the only black woman. Um, and I was the only one. So I was up there with some a couple black guys, white guys, all of them was degreed up. And one of them, you know, again, you know, I worked student success. And so one of them made the comment and challenged me in front of in front of the group because we were talking about, you know, resilience with students and and them coming, you know, coming back to school, you know, in spite of all the you know obstacles they face and you know, things like that. And I was like, well, that's to be commended. I said, because knowing the where we are, knowing the student population, that they have so much other things going on, I commend them for not giving up because a lot of them do end up being successful. Sometimes they need to stop out or whatever. And he don't tell me that didn't make no sense. And you know, that wasn't, they were just digging a hole for themselves. I and I told him in in that space in that exact moment, I said, I don't know who you're talking to. I said, but I was invited to this meeting just like you were. So now I was invited for a reason. So let's watch how we talk. So yeah, and he hadn't said much to me since. And that was that was years and years ago. So yeah, definitely I felt the weight and felt the effects of being the only black person or the only black woman.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

So that the next question is how do you see power operating in that moment? Arrogance.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Um, because it's like especially in that particular situation, it was like, how dare you? Who do you think you are? This lowly black woman with no doctor degree, having the audacity to to vote, have an opinion, having the audacity to, you know, speak up in this space. Yeah, I did that. Um, so it's it's an arrogance thing. It is um sometimes it is uh could be a fear factor from them um being fearful or intimidated by our space um and how we take up space and how we exude confidence, even we're just being who we are. Um yeah, so I would say arrogance in that particular instance and intimidation, um, fear of not of no longer being in power or fear of making or or being uh perceived to look bad, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Because, you know, like you a man, so there's some patriarchy in there, and you know, it's like who are you and some massage noir, you know, because a special brand of racism excepts and sexism that black women have to contend with.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

It was all of those things. Because in that moment, nobody stuck up for me, and I wasn't anti thinking they would, you know, but like in that moment, I was fending for myself. Nobody else was like, why you why you say that? You know, she has she's doing this, that, and the third. She she runs this program and that program. Nobody said anything is cricket. But I was like, okay, we're gonna, I'm gonna tell you today. You're not gonna talk to me any kind of way.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

And that's what the anti-black, because when you talk about anti-black racism, talks about how violent interactions are, and that to me is violence because you are essentially trying to silence, silence me saying, Why would you dismiss what I had to say?

SPEAKER_01 31:52

I never thought about it like that as like violent. I learned it's something okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah, so talking about silence, and you know, do you aside from that, have you ever felt you were in situations where you were silenced or gaslit? I know people that's a common phrase these days, but you know, yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Um and again, you know, black women aren't want to live through our experiences aren't all the same. There are some similarities um because of blackness and womanhood, right? So I will say, and I and I wrote an article, a reflection piece that that that mentioned this this experience. And before I, you know, fully you know went and got into the doctoral program, the system was antiquated. So we actually have to have our supervisor actually sign off on paperwork, like physical copies of paper to sign off on the things. And my then supervisor, when I went to her with the paperwork saying, hey, you know, I need you to sign off on this so I can take this class. Mine used after hours. It wasn't gonna impact anything to do with my work or whatever, but we still had to get supervisor permission to use the staff benefits. And she asked me, Do you think you can do this? I said, Well, you got yours. I'm gonna get mine. Um, and I still see this lady on a regular basis what make what make me so bad. Um, and so I that gaslighting or like questioning my confidence and questioning my abilities, that was one time. Um, another time going through the doctoral program, a person, a faculty member, uh, uh a faculty member on my committee, you know, she was great until she wasn't. And so I think that having to deal with that was probably, you know, and this all, and it was all like post-comps. It was like once you're you know in the dissertation and proposal and writing phase, it was just like roadblock after roadblock, you know, but then saying, Oh, how brilliant you are and how you know proud I am of you, but roadblock after roadblock, um, yeah, I yeah, that was some situation that I dealt with.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

I know all too well.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Yeah, I'm sure you do.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

So having said that, um we're gonna talk about your research. Um, because this is kind of where the storytelling meets the theory, meets the scholarship and all of that, especially with the podcast. But so just talk to us about your research and what you're naming and disrupting with um girl, let me tell you.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Girl, let me tell you. Um, so my research in a nutshell is about black women professional staff experiences navigating um higher ed, and how in those spaces we engage in acts of everyday resistance. So, what does that mean? Um, and I might even answer some more questions as I'm telling, telling this. So, my research, I wanted to know, you know, because as I said earlier, I was overlooked for positions and I was like, dog, is it me or is it other people feeling the same way that I'm feeling? And so I undertook this um this qualitative study using endarkened narrative inquiry, uh, professional counter spaces, and black feminist thought as um as my overarching my framework um to examine and to study what were black women doing in these spaces? How did we navigate these spaces? How were we um you know maintaining our sense of self as we were going through spaces that were not designed for us? And so that's what my scholarship is about, is literally about amplifying our stories and and making sure that other black women professional staff know that they are not alone in these experiences, um, that there are other people who have had these same experiences, and maybe we can, you know, learn from some of the strategies that they that they share. Um, learning from each other, being a source of support for each other, being uh, you know, just making sure that our voices are heard because a lot of times, you know, you know, with research, something a lot of times it's you know, research on faculty, research on black faculty, then you've got research on black students, but professional staff and black women professional staff, that's that group that we touch all these different parts of the higher ed ecosystem, but nobody's really asking us what we think. Um, we are on the ground doing a lot of this work, but nobody's trying to see, okay, how are we doing? How are we, you know, navigating these spaces? How are we as people even okay, right? Um, and so that's really what my research is about. It is about disrupting the narrative that we don't matter because we do. It is about making sure that we know, regardless of what the institutions we may be at, regardless of what they say, that we are able to define ourselves for ourselves, regardless of what you know systemically is being said about us.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

And I think too, one of the important things about your research is that counter spaces are needed for black women um to have that mentorship to move professionally, advance, because I know it's a lot of research about black men are in, and you know, they even have groups and you know, all of these things, and even black male students, you know, they're creating different um programming and or organizational groups within student affairs that are specifically about black men, but you don't see that for black women. The problem I have one is for black women mentorship or any type of program or pathway for black women who want to move in leadership, it's like it has to be right to like go out and seek it yourself, and and it may be that there are fewer black women in leadership overall, so that you don't have that, but even in spaces where it's seen still lacking, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

And so the thing was with professional counter spaces, professional counter spaces are those spaces for black women, by black women, where they can come together to be, you know, for support, for mentorship, for um guidance, um spaces where they can um just take off that proverbial mask and and you know share the experiences and maybe you know a space safe space to vent um with other um like-minded women. You know, and those professional counter spaces don't have to be organized, you know, named groups. Um one thing, you know, and I had a conversation with um a scholar who does a lot of work with professional counter spaces. And when I talked to her, she said, you know, professional counter spaces can be informal spaces. So it doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, um like this organized group that might a pre-conference thing could be you or your sister circle. Um, you and a couple of colleagues, you know, a couple of friends getting together to just let it out and to just, you know, go in and be able to support and be able to process whatever your experiences were so you can go back and fight another day. And so I do think that having those spaces is super important because even within, you know, higher ed, right? You don't necessarily know even just keeping it, keeping it above. Um, you know, I for me, I think I gravitate more towards informal professional counter spaces because those are folks that I chose to be in that space for me. Um, people that I have vetted with my own experiences with them and so on and so forth. Um whereas like a formal counter space, while it is still meant to be a safe space, if it's you might not necessarily have control over on who is all in those spaces, if that makes sense. And sometimes, you know, sometimes black people, you might look like us, but we you not for us. So all skinful gain kinfo. We've heard that, right? And so, and that was like with with my research that I found like with uh my co-creators, it was like, look, we desire to have these spaces, we desire to be able to get together and to be able to be vulnerable and be able to be transparent, but we don't know who we can trust. And so, um, because they have been burned by other folks that look like them, right? And so, with these professional counter spaces, the informal professional counter spaces, that's something that to me is super important where you are vetting those people, where you are choosing who is in your inner circle that you can be transparent and vulnerable with.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

And I like that, and I agree with that because I feel like sometimes we're in spaces that are not safe, that we can't be who we are, we can't reveal too much about ourselves. Because I know I've worked in spaces where people just want to know all your business, and for black folks, we never know when giving too much of ourselves or telling too much of ourselves will be used against us at a later date. Because you know, I've I was watching a TikTok or something where they were saying, you know, when when black folks go out to eat or go to social gatherings with their work group, we have rules. Don't drink. Absolutely, absolutely make small talk and don't stay all night because when alcohol gets involved, you never know who's in the corner in the cut, how much you drink, or if you start drinking and get loose at the mouth, you know what you're gonna say that somebody taking notes.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Oh, yeah, oh yeah. Again, you know, we don't. We don't we might be in these spaces, but not of these spaces. Um yeah, that that again does an outsider within, right? Um we don't we don't operate in and by the same rules. And as much as you know you might want to, you know, be in the in-cry, you might want to be able to just do all of the things, we have to intentionally think about okay, if I do this, then what? Because one of the main things I say I got a mortgage, I got deals, I got I got other stuff to do. I like I can't jeopardize my livelihood for some foolishness. Yeah. So, and I was even told, I was told one time that uh I wasn't friendly. I know that. I mean, I I I I consider myself to be friendly-ish, I guess. Um I'm cool with people who are cool with me, and I know how to make small talk with anybody, right? But I'm not gonna do too much. I'm not going to be, yeah, there boundaries. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

One thing that my aunt always said, you know, about workplace, she was like, I go there to work and I go home. I got friends elsewhere. I don't need no more friends. You don't need to know about my business, you know. Go to work. And if I do decide to share, you know, that's my business, how much and how little I share.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

It's my business. As Lampty Tab says, uh, that's my business. Um, you know, and again, going back, being thankful for my, you know, and you, you know, you know, my my work crew and and thankful that for the most part, right? Um, I got I worked with some really good people. Um, you know, we've worked together for for years, and we we talk about our kids and we talk about you know our families and things like that, but that hadn't always been the case. I've been in places where I I clock in, I'll write y'all see y'all tomorrow. You don't know nothing. Right. You you barely know my last name, you know. So because it was not a safe space. Um, so yeah, we all the varied experiences.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

And so having said all that, what does it mean to you to have done like this body of work and put it out there in the world? And I know we've been to conferences together, and and even you know, when you do your presentations, the feedback and the questions are always great. Um, so how does it feel to know that this type of work that you've done is out there um and that it honors black women?

SPEAKER_01 47:15

I feel one sometimes it's surreal. Um that it'd be like, dog, this this black girl from Itawomba County, Mississippi, um is doing work that people are interested in. Um, you know, who would have thought it? That the child of people who went to segregated high schools, like my parents, my parents graduated from segregated high schools, um, that I would be doing work that people thought was relevant, that people thought was needed. Um, and so sometimes it's surreal. Um do I feel good about it? Absolutely. I'm not gonna say I don't feel good about it now because who would I be to to not feel good about what I do? Um, but sometimes, yeah, it's surreal and I'm proud of the work that I'm doing. Um, it's not always easy. It's definitely not always easy, but I think I I continue to look at my why and why did I undertake this work in the first place. And one of the biggest motivations for continuing to do this work is I have a daughter. Um obviously she's not a first, wouldn't be a first generation college student, right? But I want her to see that, you know, her mama, uh I'm a single parent, um, is going out here and is doing things and has been recognized for the work, is getting, um, goes to conferences, getting good feedback, is working on publication. You know, we've got, you know, something we're trying to get to come out sooner rather than later. Um, so I feel good about it. Uh every now and then, you know, when I get a uh an alert from Google Scholar that somebody has cited my dissertation or cited an you know an article, I'd be like, okay, you don't have to, you know, have to, you know, do the thing a little bit, but uh it feels it feels good. It feels good. And and I'm glad that people see of see value. Um the people who I'm well, I'm gonna say this. My research is not for everybody, you know, my research is for black folks, it's for black women. And if you are interested in the experiences of us, you're welcome to read it. But um, if you're not of that target demographic, if you don't get anything out of it, I don't care. I don't, I mean, it is what it is, but I want the people like my research is almost like um a love letter to black women, um, you know, uh, you know, motivational speech to black women in this space time, like keep keep pushing, keep going, because you can do this. We are we are our ancestors' wildest dreams, and so we are here in these spaces doing work and doing outstanding work, and nobody can take that from us.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Yeah, I think, I think, you know, because we did work that was so extremely personal, personal to us for for various reasons that we of course feel that you know a connection to the research that we did because we are also our participants because it's stories that need to be told that aren't often heard, you know. You talked about the research doesn't necessarily focus on for professional staff outside of student affairs and academic advisors. So we just been here doing the work, you know, saying, hey, you know, we are here and we are also important in these are the things that you know we have going on that we experience. And so it does feel good to go to conferences, you know, and people are responding to the work. Because you know, people always say, Charlie, nobody gonna read your dissertation other than you and your committee, you know. But people are are they are reading, reading our work. You know, we've done you know, other things, the reflection articles before you know we finished, but you know, going to these conferences definitely gives us that, you know, people are interested in the work, not only the work, but how we did the work, you know, that part things. Um, you know, we kind of went outside the box, you know, on some of you know, on our research studies. So I think that also speaks to the type of research that we both produced, thanks to our dope methodologist.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

And she the bong when I tell you I love that later.

unknown 52:30

Dr.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Susan Nordstrom.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

Susan Nordstrom, shout out to you. Um, and we tell her this all of the time. Thank you. Um, because she she gave us the she gave us the uh the freedoms to really do this work and to not be afraid of doing this work. Um and and she supported us in doing critical qualitative research. Um, you know, like I said, with my methodology in dark and narrative inquiry, it was brand new. It was like two, it was one and a half articles. I say one and a half because um before I finished another one came out. And so she allowed me to have my own interpretation of how to, you know, um enact that methodology in my research. It was a lot of improvisation and my own interpretation on how, you know, to carry out in my study, um, and how I could put that with professional counter spaces and with black feminist thought, how I could put it all together. Um, and you doing dope work with anti-black racism, critical race and education and plantation politics. So we were doing some dope work, um, some things that other people haven't done in that way, putting those things together like that. It was, it was, it was outstanding. And you know, our methodologist, yeah, she's the goat.

SPEAKER_00 54:07

And shout out to Dr. Terrence Pryor, who did other mothering.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

Shout out to shout out to Dr. Terrence Pryor, like you said, the other mothering. He is the one um we who has called us academic freedom riders, um, for for for various reasons, but you know, in doing this work that you know, Dr. Shay and I do and going through this doctoral program, we were intentional about making sure the other black students coming behind us knew how to navigate these things, um, you know, giving them advice on, okay, this is what you need to do with this, that, and the third, um, you know, being listening ears and all of those things. And so when he finished um his dissertation and his acknowledgments, he he called Dr. Shay and I the Academic Freedom Riders. And so we have uh held on to that. And this last conference that we went to last year, we even had some shirts with academic freedom riders on the front with a fist. And so um this work is personal. It is something that we are intentional about doing. We want to make sure that other black and brown scholars are able to navigate these spaces, are able to persist and able to get those degrees because we're here, we we can do the work. We just have to make sure that we are we have that support to navigate things that might not necessarily be easy.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

Because you know, black folks doing their work and doctoral programs, A, you may be the only one or one of two or three, and then trying to do critical work, and you may face roadblocks, and you don't get as much support as other folks are getting. So, yes, we made efforts to reach back and provide support to those who we felt needed it. Um I really do think that's also part of honoring the community of black folks because we struggle and we know the system because we work within the system, know how hard it is to just do critical work, but how liberated it is to do critical work and get stories out there and tell the truth about what's going on in these. And I want to pause here for a moment because what we've been sitting with in this first part of the conversation is not small. We've been talking about lived experiences about navigating these spaces as black professionals and as black women and what it means to do this work while also being shaped by it. And that matters. Because before we can even talk about policy or systems or institutional response, we have to ground ourselves in the people doing the work. In the next part of this conversation, we're going to shift. We're going to move into what's happening at the structural level, especially as we talk about the dear colleague letter and what that has meant to institutions. But for now, just sit with this because this is the foundation of the code. Thank you for spending time with me on the discourse with Dr. Cho. If today's conversation spoke to you, I invite you to subscribe, share the episode, and continue these conversations in your spaces and communities. You can also stay connected with me online. Follow me on Instagram at Dr. UnderscoreJ. On TikTok at DrJ slash Gen X, and follow the podcast on TikTok at Discourse with Dr. Shay. You can also visit the podcast website at thediscourse with Dr. Shay.com for episodes, resources, and more. Remember, storytelling is powerful, scholarship is necessary, and our lived experiences matter. Until next time, keep engaging, keep reflecting, and keep pushing the discourse forward.